Dungeon Finder Changes

A set of proposed hotfixes for the Dungeon Finder tool have just been released. The official thread can be found here.

* Players who are outside a dungeon for more than a few minutes are now immediately able to be kicked.

At first blush this makes sense. If a player doesn’t enter the instance they can be kicked. But I think the better question is ‘Why are they allowed to leave this instance at all?’. You can’t leave a Battleground for any reason or you are automatically removed, so why is it any different when using the Dungeon Finder? I would prefer that they added a vendor to the start of every instance that does repairs and sells the basics (food, water, ect.) and then automatically remove anyone who leaves the instance.

* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.

I will start by saying that I think the frequency of this occurring is vastly overstated. I have never had this happen in a random and I’ve never heard any guildies complain that it has happened. That leads me to believe that this will end up causing as many headaches as it solves. There have been times when I have had something major happen (such as my daughter hurting herself) at the beginning of a dungeon or even just as the queue popped. When I  have queued with people and something like that has happened I usually apologize and bow out rather than make everyone wait on however long I will be AFK (and take some measure of comfort knowing that they won’t be waiting forever on a replacement). Now if something like that happens they will be there will be no choice but to wait, either they get kicked just because I leave and wait in another queue or wait on me while I stay in group and deal with whatever the issue is.

* If three or more players group queue with each other it will require an additional vote for them to kick anyone they did not group queue with.

* If a group queue of 4 kicks the one person that they did not group queue with they will each receive a more severe penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.

While I do think the frequency of getting kicked from guild groups is accurately represented (even though again this has not happen to me and only once has happened to a guildie) I don’t think it is  a problem. In fact, it is harder to get removed from a group now than it was before the Dungeon Finder existed when it only took one person to remove you. In my experience you really have to be doing something wrong to prompt a group (even of guildies) to replace you. Basically I’ve seen people get kicked (from random Heroics) for one, or usually more, of the following reasons:

  1. 75% CC/Target Selection Issues – Refusing to CC, Failing at CC (not able to target a trap properly, not CCing until the target is in melee range), Breaking CC, Not following the kill order. Basically, not doing your job,
  2. 10% Insufficient DPS/Heals/Tanking – Again, not doing your job,
  3. 10% General douchebagery on the part of the person being kicked,
  4. 4% Repeated failing at specific mechanics,
  5. 1% General douchebagery on the part of the person initiating the kick.

Most of the time it won’t be an issue because, again, you have to really be doing something wrong to the point that it is hindering the group’s progress or making the run particularly unpleasant for most people to kick you and once it has reached that point most people are on board. The big problem comes when you get two others who have queued together and one or both of them need to be kicked for the above reasons.

I am also curious to know what exactly is meant by “a more severe penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks”. If it just increases your kick timer faster than a normal kick does than I’m not sure that it will change anything. If you can only initiate one kick per instance across the entire group then I would expect behaviors to only get worse. There have been many times when I have queued in a group of four while missing a tank, for example, and have had to go through three or four tanks before we could finish the instance or even get to the first boss because they would chain pull multiple groups, break CC, ect. If a tank came into a run with four guildies and knew that they couldn’t be kicked I would think some of the undesirable behavior would only be exacerbated.

* If someone initiates a vote kick for someone they group queued with they will not incur a penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.

I think this is a reasonable change. There have been times when I have been with guild groups (my own and others) where someone has disconnected and can’t get back on and needed to be removed so the group could get a replacement and continue but couldn’t because people had already used their kicks and the group had to disband.

Most of the changes are directed at guild groups and seemed designed to make it more difficult for them to remove another player who is placed with them in the dungeon finder. I have a problem with most of these changes mainly because Blizzard is trying to ‘fix’ player behavior by addressing the people around those players rather than addressing the problem directly. It feels like they are punishing players for queuing with others who have the same goals.

I understand that a lot of people come to the forums and complain that some mean guild group kicked them out of a run for no good reason. Every time I have inspected one of those people’s armory pages however I am usually able to find one, a mix of quest greens with crafted PvP gear to get around the ilevel requirement, no gems, enchants or reforging for any of that gear, never having completed the normal version of the heroic they were complaining of getting kicked from. In my experience there is always a good reason. Compared to the one instance anyone in my guild has been kicked out of another guild’s run I have encountered countless numbers of people who have needed to be kicked because their repeated poor performance and lack of communication was preventing the rest of the group from completing the instance.

What about you? Are you looking forward to these changes? Would you have left things the way they were or changed things differently?

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4 Responses to Dungeon Finder Changes

  1. Stubborn says:

    “A more severe penalty…” The only more severe penalty they can give me at this point is that I instantly kick myself if I use the Vote to Kick option. I’ve already got a 45 minute cooldown, and I haven’t spent 45 minutes in a dungeon that I actually finished in a long time.

    Ah well, I’m sure there will be lots of people who benefit from this decision. I’m not sure who, though. Not the good, average players in the middle.

    Thanks for bringing attention to this. You and MMOMeltingPot (linking to you) were the only people that kept this from passing me by.

    • Cryptic says:

      Yeah, I’m in the same boat. You make a good point about the kick timer being longer than a decent run takes, I hadn’t looked at it that way before.

      Since these changes have been posted I really don’t want to use the dungeon finder, especially to fill out the last spot or two in a guild group. It’s back to PuGing out of trade again for me, which I think will ultimately help my guild by letting us find some good recruits so we have to PuG a last spot less.

      Thanks for mentioning MMOMeltingPot, I hadn’t realized they had linked here.

  2. Imakulata says:

    Leaving the dungeons makes sense as the battlegrounds do not stop or pause when a single player quits. In dungeons, a tank or healer is needed so people have to wait for one if they lose them. There is no reason to force them to wait inside the instance instead of going out and doing a couple of quests or whatever they might want to do.

    The tank leaves at the start issue does happen. It’s hard to distinguish between this and a case when tank realizes they didn’t want to run an instance in the first place and quits and there is someone else from the same realm by coincidence. However, in the latter case they often say something (usually some kind of expletive).

    The 3 player group change feels flawed, I think they should increase the penalty to the same value they did for 4 player groups. Now, one player can stop kicking and cause a lockout.

    Unfortunately, they decided keep us from continuing an instance if too many players quit. In my experience, 95%+ failed runs is caused by 4 people quitting; the LFD tool forces the remaining one to requeue for a random dungeon instead of going on which is quite annoying.

    • Cryptic says:

      Well, I can see your point about dungeons stopping when a tank or healer leaves, but in my experience I’ve never had to wait longer than a minute when a tank or healer leaves. It usually takes longer for us to get those people who ported out to come back in than it does to get a replacement through the Dungeon Finder.

      I understand that it does happen, I was just saying that it seems like the amount of QQ on the forums isn’t representative of how often it happens. Unfortunately the change Blizz made isn’t going to make the problem go away, it will most likely make the problem worse. This is a problem of player behavior, and a minor inconvenience to what they are doing won’t stop them (on the other hand if Blizz were to start handing out 3 day account bans for everyone involved…). Right now if this issue happens it takes 1-3 minutes for the tank to cuss you out, drop, and for the dungeon finder to give you a replacement. After the change I would expect these same run selling tanks will charge a little more, queue with a minimum of two dps so they can’t be kicked for the first five minutes, then go afk and have one of the dps they queued with start the kick after the zone in period so they can continue. So after the change you will have to wait 6-10 minutes for the ‘zone in timer’ to run out, then for the other dps to come back from being afk to start the kick, and then for the Dungeon Finder to issue you a replacement.

      Yes there are some guild groups that think it is fun to randomly kick people out of a run. I would look at it as a blessing because those are the same groups that will ninja everything in a run. So now instead of being kicked before you waste more of your time you have to wait until the first boss or two before you realize they are going to ninja everything. Now instead of being kicked before you get saved so you have another chance to run that instance you get to wait another day before you get a shot at that trinket.

      Or maybe you get a guild group like mine. We kick for performance issues. Before if you were hindering the progress of a run we could just let you go, no insults, just a swift kick. Now that the kick timer is going to be two hours, we will have to resort to tactics to compel you to leave on your own. I certainly won’t be healing anyone who isn’t contributing, or rezing them. Maybe throw in some clever use of game mechanics to get them killed, and not rez them.

      My biggest Dungeon Finder issue has been when I queue with a guild group minus a tank. I had written a post a while ago that addressed that issue a bit more.

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